Q. Let me just tell you -- what we need to do is to get as much information as we can, and to test it to see how credible it is.

A. Mr. Kravitz, it does not take a very intelligent person to see the fraud that's been perpetrated here.

Q. I haven't denied that this looks the way it looks.

A. The Government you work for.

Q. I don't think we need to say anymore. And we will, after lunch, be going into more substantive issues. But I think it's necessary for us to ask you for your reaction to these documents. They exist. And I should say -- I should tell you that one of the things that the committee is looking at is whether there's cover-up of all information regarding the POW issue. And one of the things that's helpful for you to do is to point out stuff like that. And it's now on the record. And I think it's something that should be investigated.

A. Should be, but knowing what I know now, I don't see this ever, being investigated. The Government is bigger than you and me put together.

Q. Why don't you take a couple of minutes to look at it?

A. I guess it should -- it blows my mind. I guess it shouldn't blow my mind. Why don't you ask them to produce the signed original?

Q. Well, I think we should.

A. I think you should, too. And I think if any of you want to come out to Arizona, I will show you the original, along with the original CID letter that's in the book -- the original, -- inked, signed -- this is a trip.

MR. KRAVITZ: Why don't we go off the record. (Discussion off the record.)

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. We've been discussing the issue of the DD-214 off the record for approximately 5 minutes. And Mr. Barnes has informed us the United States Army was directed by the Federal District Court in San Francisco, back in January of 1981 to produce -- during the Hells Angels Trial -- a complete copy of Mr.Barnes' military record.

We are going to -- as part of our investigation for the committee -- we are going to contact the Federal District Court in California to attempt to get the DD-214 that was submitted, pursuant to that subpoena and that order. We're also going to go back to the Army records in St. Louis and find out where the copy that was faxed to us, and now appears as Exhibit No. 13 came from. I think we should try to make the best attempt we can to see what this -- what this was copied from. Because I agree that there is a serious question as to what's going on with all these documents. I don't know if you want to add anything to that.

A. Well, I would like to know -- obviously this committee is powerless to do anything about fraud. But here our Government is perpetrating fraud. It's now as an Exhibit and, in my opinion, an investigation of a cover-up. And here, our own Government's continuing to perpetrate that. What is going to be done?

Q. Well, I just said what was going to be done in the first instance. I don't want you to have the impression that the committee is powerless to investigate fraud. That is one of the subjects that we are charged with investigating. And it will be investigated.

A. So if you see that this is wrong, and I show you the original, what are you going to do?

Q. That's not going to be up to me. But I guarantee you that it will be brought to the attention of people who are very interested in investigating fraud both within and outside the Government.

MR. KRAVITZ: Why don't we break for lunch.

THE WITNESS: I'd like to ask a question of Steve off the record.

(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the taking of the instant deposition recessed, to reconvene this same day.)

(1:15 p.m.)

Whereupon,

SCOTT TRACY BARNES,

the witness on the stand at the time of recess, having been previously duly sworn, was further examined and testified as follows:

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. Let me just say before we start this afternoon session, Mr, Barnes, is there any answer that you gave us before lunch that now, having had an hour to think about it, that you'd want to change in any way?

A. None whatsoever.

Q. Let's move forward in time to 1981. It's my understanding that at some point that year you were in Hawaii. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. When did you go to Hawaii?

A. Probably February-ish.

Q. Of 1981?

A. Correct.

Q. Where in Hawaii were you?

A. I was on several of the islands, but Oahu.

Q. What were you doing there?

A. In 1981 I went over there to help with a friend that was doing a church.

Q. What was the name of the church?

A. No. that was 1983. 1981 was Maui -- Hope Chapel.

Q. So you went -- this is still February of 1981, and you were in Maui working with Hope Chapel?

A. The City is Kehi, Maui.

Q. How do you spell that?

A. I believe it's K-e-h-i.

Q. What was Hope Chapel -- or what was it at that time?

A.It's a non-denominational, Christian, Orthodox church.

Q. Were you there helping a friend who was running the church?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Who was that?

A. Craig Englert.

Q. How do you spell that?

A. E-n-g-l-e-r-t.

Q. What exactly were you doing?

A. Basically, they had started a new church and I was just going to help them, you know, get it off the ground.

Q. So what kind of work?

A. Talking to people about the bible, helping them get a permanent building, setting up chairs when they would have their Sunday service in whatever building they were, because they didn't have a permanent building then.

Q. Were you involved in any kind of intelligence work at that time?

A. No, not there in Maui.

Q. Before the time that you got a call from a representative of Hughes Aircraft, what was the most recent time that you had been involved in any intelligence, counter-intelligence?

A. Before that?

Q. Right.

A. The Angels trial, which was January of 1981. So I would say the previous month. So fairly recently. Go ahead, I'm sorry. I don't like to be wrong.

Q. Did there come a time that you -- you were contacted by someone from the Hughes Corporation?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. I would say mid to late-April was the first, as I recall, telephonic contact.

Q. And this is 1981?

A. That is correct.

Q. Tell us exactly what the nature of that contact was.

A. As I recall, the very first, initial one, was from a female that worked for Hughes Aircraft, El Segundo, California.

Q. Do you know what her name was?

A. No. and I'm not sure if it's in the book or not.

Q. Where did you receive the phone call?

A. At the Hope Chapel office, in Kehi, Maui -- so you'd be able to get the long distance telephone record from Hughes, Then the next call was from a man wanting to know --

Q. Let's talk about them one at a time. What happened in the first telephone call.

A. First she wanted to know if I had ever heard of a James Gordon Gritz. She wanted to know if I was still in acquaintance with Vang Pao. I said yes. That was essentially it, until a day or two later.

Q. Did she identify herself by name?

A. Yes, but like I say, I don't know if it's in Bohica or not. It might be in the excerpts of the little blue book that's been printed in there. Her name might be in there if you want me to look.

(Pause.)

Well, I'm looking, if you want to keep asking questions.

Q. First, what was the conversation about?

A. First if I knew Edward Gordon Gritz, which I said I didn't, and then if I knew Vang Pao, and that I'd get a forthcoming call.

Q. Did she tell you what the call was going to be about?

A. I don't know if she did, but the next call did, yeah.

Q. Okay, What was the next call that you got?

A. It was a man that called, and gave me a call back number, I'm at Hughes Aircraft, and said that, you know, Gritz had wanted to get a hold of me.

Q.Oh, okay.

A. It was area code (213) -- at that time -- 670-1515, Extension 6563, APD Office, Advanced Program Development, Hughes Aircraft, El Segundo, California. That was the call-back number. And I checked it, and it was.

Q. Okay.

A. But her name's not down here.

Q. Do you know who it was who called you the second time?

A. The man? No. The third time, yeah.

Q. Okay, now what was the conversation the second -- when the second call with the man?

A. What was my relationship, currently, with Vang Pao; would I be interested in helping this guy, Gritz, gather information on American prisoners of war. I said I don't believe there's any -- I left it at that, I said yeah, I'll talk to him if he calls.

Q. You said you don't believe there's any what?

A. There's any left behind, no.

Q. Did you mean that when you said that, or --

A. Oh, of course. I had no reason to doubt they all came home in 1973.

Q. Okay, so your belief in April of 1981 was that there were no live Americans.

A. That is correct, absolutely.

Q. What was that based on?

A. Well, belief in my Government, belief -- when the President of the United States said all living prisoners of war had now been returned home, I had no reason to refute that, I never doubted my Government then.

Q. What was the nature of your relationship, in April of 1981, with Vang Pao?

A. Very good, very good.

Q. Can you tell us? How did you first meet him?

A. In person, I was going to go to Thailand for him in -- I believe it was in -- early 1980 -- in July 1980 I was going to go to Thailand for him. And I had subsequently had several meetings with him. At one time, Dr. Jane Hamilton Merritt, who is a pretty well-known -- I think she's a college professor up at an all-women's college somewhere in New England now -- she was having a meeting regarding the gas warfare problem down there. So she would be one that you could confirm my existence at that time with General Vang Pao. And she was disturbed that we were in the same room together because she didn't like me. I did not go on the 1980 request, I made it as far as Hawaii. And then that was it.

Q. What was supposed to be the purpose of the 1980 trip to Thailand?

A. That his men, some of his, you know, Hmong people were in need of certain supplies. And I was going to go help them get these supplies.

Q. Was it your understanding in 1980 that Vang Pao was working for the CIA?

A. Um-hum. There had been an on going -- according to him, and Lieutenant Colonel Vang Yee -- an on-going, or maybe a lack of dialogue that a promise was made. And we went over the whole thing -- not that it meant a whole lot to me at the time -- and he was very upset at, you know, our Government, for not coming through with the promise. And we discussed it.

Q. How did you first come in contact with Vang Pao?

A. Well, I know some people say it was in Vietnam in 1973. My first contact was via Hope Chapel, helping some of his refugee people -- not him -- he's not an American Christian by any means -- but some of his Hmong people.

Q. So what was -- his connection with the Hope Chapel was through --

A. His -- none -- just basically some of his Hmong people had gone to get -- you know, our church, at the time, was heavily involved in helping any and all refugees, clothing, food, things of that nature.

Q. Did he have anything to do with the chapel through the refugees?

A. No, none that I'm aware of.

Q. Do you know where he was living back in 1980, 1981?

A. Yeah, he had a little ranch down in Victor, Montana. And he maintained a very substantial office in Garden Grove, California.

Q. And when did you first meet him in person?

A. It would be early 1980's, with Dr. Jane Hamilton Merritt.

Q. Where?

A. In his Orange County office.

Q. Between that first meeting in 1980, and the time that you received these telephone calls in Hawaii in April of 1981, how many times did you meet with Vang Pao?

A. Maybe four.

Q. All in the California office?

A. Yeah.

Q. What were those meetings related to, after the 1980 trip was cancelled?

A. I don't know how to word this -- let me understand the question. You're asking the meetings that I had with General Vang Pao before leaving for Hawaii in 1981, what we discussed?

Q. Right.

A. I don't think I can answer that.

Q. Because?

A. That -- I just would rather invoke the Fifth Amendment on that one, in its entirety. The meetings had essentially nothing to do with American prisoners of war.

Q. Essentially had nothing to do with?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay -- well, let me ask you this -- were you working for the CIA at that point?

A. To my knowledge, I've never worked for the CIA.

Q. Okay, so to your knowledge, you were not working for the CIA in 1981 when you were meeting with Vang Pao?

A. To my knowledge directly to the CIA, no.

Q. Okay. But you're not sure whether you were working indirectly for the CIA as a contractor for someone who might have been working for the CIA.

A. That is correct, yes -- that is true, yes?.

Q. Okay. How widely-known do you think it was, say in the spring of 1981, that you knew Vang Pao?

A. Not at all -- widely, meaning common civilians, none -- not at all.

Q. How do you think it was known by the people -- by Bo Gritz, for example?

A. That, you'd have to ask Bo Gritz.

Q. You never found out how he found out that you knew Vang Pao?

A. Not that I recall, no.

Q. Have you ever heard of a Hmong tribesman by the name of Phimmerchek, an acquaintance of Vang Pao?

A. Doesn't ring a bell, not that name -- I would remember that, I think.

Q. Okay, so you got the second call from a man at Hughes Aircraft.

A. Yes.

Q. And you were told to expect a call from Bo Gritz?

A. Well, Bo came in later, I mean the name Bo -- I mean it was always James Gordon Gritz, you know, and then eventually, yes, that dropped. And yes, I was to expect a call from Bo Gritz.

Q. And did you call Colonel Gritz, or did he call you?

A. We call -- he would call, and I wasn't there. And we kept playing phone tag, I bet several days.

Q. Before the time that you actually spoke with Colonel Gritz, did you know what the purpose of his contacting you was?

A. Yes, that he was going to want to discuss American prisoners of war having been left behind in Indochina -- no specific country at that time.

Q. Did you know that he was going to discuss that issue in the context of mounting a secret rescue mission?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you do anything to check into Colonel Gritz's background before the time that you actually spoke with him?

A. I may have, but I'm not sure. I may have called a few people, but I -- in all honesty, I don't recall.

Q. Okay. When was it that you first actually spoke with Colonel Gritz?

A. I bet it was end of April, close to the end of April.

Q. And this was on the telephone?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Do you remember who succeeded in reaching whom?

A. I believe I finally had connected with him -- but he may have been connected with me. I'm not sure.

Q. And this was at the Hughes.

A. From Hughes Aircraft because I remember on the phone bill, unfortunately, the church had gotten -- I paid for it, though -- Bo did -- that there was numerous calls back and forth.

Q. Okay, well what was the conversation that you had with Colonel Gritz?

A. Finally, when we got on, he had -- first he wanted to know for sure it was Vang Pao, did we have a good relationship? And I said yes. Was I aware that he was still running certain operations, you know, out of his host country; and what I knew; did I believe there was American prisoners that were left behind; probably at that time I sarcastically laughed, and of course, no, no, there was no Americans.

And he said, would you help me on an operation? You know, you're in Hawaii right now. Would you go to the United States Embassy, you know, and coordinate with some people down there that are very interested in knowing, you know, what Vang Pao's people know.

Q. Well, let me ask you this -- you -- there was no question in your mind that any type of rescue mission would be dangerous?

A. Oh, of course.

Q. And you've told us that your belief back in the spring of 1981 was that your Government was telling you the truth.

A. Absolutely.

Q. - that there were no live POWs.

A. Correct.

Q. Why would you agree to go on what was certainly to be a dangerous mission, if you believed that it was going to be fruitless because everybody was dead?

A. Well, they didn't agree, the mission going to the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok wasn't dangerous.

Q. Oh, okay, so in other words -- what you signed on for initially was just to go to Bangkok.

A. Yeah, let me explain how that worked, There were some and this is -- I found out after the fact you know, and I don't want to mess up your deposition here that certain elements in the embassy needed Vang Pao's guerrillas' cooperation down there. They were not cooperating with the known people within the embassy. I was to convince Vang Pao's guerrillas, you know, that I'm a representative of Vang Pao; these people are not in any way affiliated with the United States Government. Please help them. They're private. That's all that it was. It was supposed to be an introduction -- as they called it, a greasing of the slids to smooth things over. All these individuals, on paper, are supposed to be retired from any American organizations at all. And that's all that it was. And I said yeah, I'll run down there for you to do that.

Q. So in other words, the expectation was that if any of the -- if the guerrillas thought that this had anything to do with he American Government, they would squash it?

A. Exactly. And that, I learned after the fact.

Q. You learned after the fact that that was why you were asked to be involved?

A. Right, exactly.

Q. So what -- what, exactly, was the agreement that you reached with Colonel Gritz over the telephone that first time?

A. That first of all I wanted to check into some people that I had known, and would he give me names and numbers of those people that I can verify some things -- which he did. He said do you know a courier --

Q. Let me interrupt you for a second. In your book, you tell -- you write that what you wanted to check out was to make sure that it was an official, Government operation.

A. Um-hum.

Q. Isn't that inconsistent with what was going to be presented to the guerrillas?

A. Oh, absolutely. But I wanted to make sure that it was, in fact, backed by the Government, that this ploy was to convince these guerrillas and General Souvan that these guys don't work for the Government. I'm not going to go do something private. I'm not going to get involved in some fantasy escapade, you know, or my life could be endangered or caught and, you know, looked on. I don't mind helping if there's something that is -- that they feel is serious and they want to look into. That's up to them, I don't care.

Q. Okay.

A. And I would help them do that.

Q. But at the time that you signed on, you had absolutely no expectation that you would be involved in a recognizance mission?

A. None whatsoever, none.

Q. Who did you call to verify that this was, in fact, a Government-sponsored mission?

A. I called two people within Defense Intelligence.

Q. Do you remember what their names were?

A. Pat Hurt and Mike Burns, I spoke to Colonel Kennedy. I spoke to Colonel Robinson.

Q. Let's just slow down -- who is Pat Hurt?

A. Pat Hurt and Mike Burns work for Defense Intelligence Prisoner of War information for the DIA -- or did. I don't know where they are today. I haven't kept in contact with them.

Q. What did Pat Hurt tell you when you called him?

A. How did I get his name and number; told him; he said yeah, you can check with all kinds of people, you know? It's a sanctioned/unsanctioned; official/unofficial. I said okay, I got the drift. Colonel Robinson --

Q. Did you know these people before you called them?

A. I may have known them via Vang Pao. I mean there was a lot of American people that were brought up during several meetings on some things. But I can't say for certain that --

Q. You mean you may have met Pat Hurt?

A. Oh, I don't feel I ever have met either of them. But, I mean, their names may have been brought up at some of Vang Pao's meetings.

Q. And that's how you would have known to call them?

A. That, and Bo had given me, you know, a whole list of names and numbers -- both within the Pentagon and without -- to confirm or deny.

Q. Okay, what did Burns tell you?

A. That it was a -- as I recall -- it was a back-door operation -- and it might not have been, because I mean there was so many people during this period of time that I had spoken to -- so I can't be certain of what actual one individual had said. But the general consensus out of everybody in the confirmation was that it was a back-door operation; that Dick Allen and the Vice-President at the time, George Bush, and William Casey, in protecting certain people, needed to have an intelligence operation go to look to see if this information was valid or not. It's not that they didn't trust it, believe, you know, the Hmong, or the Montenyards, or the LPs, but it's that they, you know, Allen, Casey, and Bush, wanted an American on-ground team to see are there Americans there? It involved a lot of other people that, you know, I had spoken to that confirmed the exact same thing.

Q. What's your best approximation of the date that you, called Pat Hurt on?

A. I would say within the late to the first week of May, late April to the first week of May.

Q. Okay, so sometime between say, April 20, and May 10.

A. And May 8 or 9.

Q. And same --

A. And then subsequent, thereafter, several conversations.

Q. Within how long a period of time?

A. By the end of the year.

Q. Okay, so in other words you continued to talk with Pat Hurt --

A. And Burns.

Q. -- through the end of 1981.

A. Absolutely.

Q. Until a time period after the recognizance mission?

A. I don't recall. The Secret Service and the FBI talked to me Christmas Eve 1981, I'm not sure if I talked to Burns and Hurt after that day or not because that was a key day to cut communications with a lot of people.

Q. Back to late April, early May, after your first telephone conversation with Colonel Gritz, did you call anyone other than those two people at the DIA?

A. I talked to Robinson, I talked to Kennedy.

Q. Okay, where was Robinson?

A. At that time he was in the Pentagon.

Q. Defense Department in what capacity?

A. I think he, at that time, was working chemical/biological research in conjunction with Yellow Rain in Indochina.

Q. Was he someone you knew previously?

A. Knew -- no, I couldn't say that I knew him. But we had had previous conversations.

Q. What information did you get from Robinson?

A. That it was an official mission; the activity was behind it; Dale Duncan was involved; Wayne Longhoffer -- names that I had already heard of and had known previously; and there were some other names. But I don't remember who they were.

Q. What is the -- what is the activity?

A. The activity as described was -- and if you want me to draw it --

Q. Just go ahead and --

A. And I'll do exactly what was done. Apparently what had happened, Admiral Turner, in 1977, 1978, had dismissed a lot of people from Central Intelligence after some of the Church hearings in 1975. And what had occurred is the White House, via the NSC, via Bill Casey, in communications, wanted a special operations group that would not be answerable to Congress, the Senate, that could be circumvented so there would be no connection to the next one up.

Bill Casey, in turn, spoke to certain individuals, informed -- what we just called it the activity period. Substantial amounts of money were needed. Obviously, the agency, in its funding, could not fund an entirely separate arm on its own, without somebody asking questions. I don't want to say the word permission, but it was okay to dabble in the illicit transportation of narcotics and traffic, and certain things, to raise large funds of cash. And there was no account of same. My understanding is you may have already looked into this. Colonel Dale Duncan was later arrested, convicted, for some minor fraud stuff, because they couldn't get him on the big stuff. So they buried him on the small stuff.

Q. We're going to come back to all this stuff about the activity later, actually. Because we're actually very interested in what you know about the activity's involvement with drugs and certain other --

A. But that is not a POW. That's not in your guidelines.

Q. We can talk about that later, I think. I think it probably is. Let's go back to your dealings with Colonel Gritz. Let me just interrupt for one second and introduce you. This is Dino Carluccio, our Deputy Staff Director. Who did you speak with other than Hurt, Burns, and Robinson? Anyone from the CIA?

A. Several people. John Stein, McMahon -- the others are named in the book, I don't remember all their names. But --

Q. And was the information that you received from the CIA people you spoke with essentially the same -- that is, that this was an official --

A. It was a black operation. The activity's hand was in it. You know, if you could assist, you know -- Daniel Arnold was one of the main people.

Q. Do you know what -- is it Stein or Stein?

A. Stein -- S-t-e-i-n, John.

Q. John Stein?

A. John Stein,

Q. Okay.

A. He was at CDO when I talked to him, I don't know where he is today.

Q. What did you do after you spoke with all these people and learned that this was a Government-sponsored mission?

A. I think -- and you could probably ask the pastor out there -- I think I spoke to him on a Christian level, I mean, you know, looking for advice, you know? I mean I did not believe, obviously, then, that we left men behind.

Q. What was the pastor's name?

A. Craig Englert -- E-n-g-l-e-r-t.

Q. Okay.

A. And he should still be there. And Jason, the gentleman that was dying of cancer at the time, the other pastor. And he's still alive. He made it. I discussed it with them because I had some concerns.

I knew it was Government. There was no doubt, you know, in my mind. Bo then said do you know of a courier that you, personally know -- you know, he goes, I could send one to you. But you may not know him, and it may, you know, cause a little problem. But you know him -- that I could send over a package. And I said yes. There's somebody I know that lives, you know, 2 or 3 miles from here. He could pick up a package on one condition. And this is where my personal -- at that time -- greed comes in. And that's as long as you pay for him to have a week's vacation in Hawaii. He says oh, we can do that. And so he did, And this individual came over.

Q. By this time had you done any investigation into Colonel Gritz's background?

A. Not other than the people that I had spoken to, you know -- I found out that he was asked in 1979, out of Panama, to start looking into the possibility Americans were left behind. Other than that, there wasn't much for him to look into.

Q. What was the name of the courier?

A. In order to protect him; his name is -- his first name is in the book, I don't really want to divulge his last name.

Q. Well, were you --

A. The FBI's already given him a bad time.

Q. We're going to ask you to give us his name. I mean it's --

A. I just really can't, I mean I need to protect him.

Q. What do you think is going to happen to him if you give us his name? Well, knowing that this mission -- his name was given --

A. Well, his name was given out before and the FBI came to him.

Q. You understand, that as we said before, this deposition is committee confidential, which means it's not going to go to the -- the FBI is not going to see this transcript.

A. You want to bet? You give this to McCain and the whole world is going to have it.

Q. Are you refusing to answer that question?

A. Yes, I will have to refuse to answer it.

Q. What's his first name?

A. Steve.

Q. Where did you know Steve from?

A. We've known each other since we were just kids. We grew up together.

Q. What kind of arrangements did you make with Steve?

A. I called him up and I said do you want a week's paid vacation in Hawaii? Maybe I'm quoting him inaccurately -- he says, what is this, another Government da-da-da? I said no, don't worry about it. Just pick up a package. Bring it to me, and we'll go scuba diving every day for the next week. And then I have to go to Thailand. And then boom. He was there.

Q. Was it ever explained to you what Hughes Aircraft connection was in all this?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Who explained that to you?

A. Bo.

Q. What did he tell you?

A. That he was placed in Hughes Aircraft as a cover, to run operations for the activity in different parts of the world. He, at that time, for the activity, was focusing in on the POW stuff.

Q. Do you know who in the Government was providing intelligence information to Bo Gritz on the POW issue at that time?

A. Who in the Government, other than Longhoffer, King, Colonel Duncan, and whoever his immediate agent handler was. He had hardcore -- and I've seen it -- hardcore intelligence. I mean it wasn't xeroxed copies from the Government that had been through who knows what.

Q. Who was Bo Gritz's agent handler?

A. By real name, I do not know, It was all done via TRW. And he used all their communications.

Q. What was the name you knew the handler by?

A. I don't know the name. Really, I don't. It wasn't important to me who his immediate man was.

Q. Was money discussed during the telephone conversation between you and Gritz, the initial telephone conversation?

A. What do you mean by money?

Q. Well, did you-discuss with him whether you were going to be paid for this?

A. Of course. What's the statute of limitation on tax, 7 years?

Q. I think it's certainly a lot longer than 11 years, But I have to say I don't know the answer to that -- I'm sorry, a lot shorter than 11 years.

A. Okay, yeah, we discussed money. Money was no problem.

Q. What was the money-discussion?

A. That I would be paid X amount in cash; I would have a contact company, too, really -- one in Hawaii and one in Bangkok, if I needed liquid assets other than what he was sending.

Q. Again, this deal was simply for you to go to --

A. The U.S. Embassy, Bangkok,

Q. It had nothing to do with a recognizance mission?

A. None.

Q. How much money did he promise to pay you to go to the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok?

A. What's the relevancy of that? I mean I'm laughing because it was a lot, for what I thought was a waste of your taxpayers' dollars.

Q. It's relevant because it's a fact about this decision.

A. It was a lot of money. I can't say, but it was in the thousands.

Q. What was it?

A. I bet I probably got 9 or 10 grand in cash.

Q. $9 or $10 thousand in cash?

A. Yes.

Q. Up front?

A. Up front.

Q. And that was paid to you in Hawaii?

A. It was paid to me directly in Hawaii, delivered to 45 No Khai Street, Kehi, Maui.

Q. That was before you ever went to Thailand for Gritz?

A. Right, and then Steve had come over. And, of course, he had his plane fare paid, and a whole week's pay to scuba diving.

Q. You mentioned a guy named Longhoffer.

A. Wayne.

Q. Was he --

A. He was an activity operative.

Q. Do you know someone whose name is simply Wayne Long?

A. It rings a bell, but I'm not sure.

Q. Do you think there might be someone different than Wayne Longhoffer?

A. Well, there was a Wayne Longhoffer. But that rings a bell, I can't place it.

Q. When you were talking on the telephone with Gritz, he was in California?

A. Yes, he was at that one number.

Q. You were in Hawaii?

A. Yeah, now when he called me, I don't know what number he was at.

Q. Were you talking on secure or unsecure telephones?

A. Well, when I called him, I called from the church phone.

Q. Obviously an unsecure telephone.

A. Yeah, him calling me. He said there's no problem But I didn't really care. I didn't think there was anything of any secrecy or hush-hushness about it. He said everything will be spelled-out in the package that yiour friend is bringing.

Q. When did the package arrive?

A. I bet maybe they got things coordinated by late-May, early June.

Q. And it arrived with your friend, Steve?

A. Yes, he brought it over, yes.

Q. What did you do when you got the package?

A. Looked it over.

Q. Were you supposed to open it?

A. Oh, yes, oh, of course.

Q. You weren't simply supposed to deliver it in Thailand?

A. Oh, no, no, there was a sealed package within the package that I was to deliver. That, I never did open. But the main package, yes, I did open.

Q. What was in the package?

A. A letter from General Aaron to Bo, a bio on Bo, some people that I was supposed to contact at the Embassy -- a few names and numbers. Other than that, that was about it.

Q. What was the nature of the letter from General Aaron to Bo?

A. Something to the effect some people within the Government, our Government, believe that we may have left men behind. But another branch of our Government is circumventing to stop that. Would you kindly, with your intelligence apparatus, be a certain contacts, join in and help us do this? And then there was another letter asking him -- and I think it's in Bohica -- to step out of the service on paper, and that upon completion of operation, he would be promoted to Full Bird Colonel, and he'd be put back on active duty with Fifth Maksog.

Q. Did you know who General Aaron was at that time?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Who was he?

A. A deputy DIA commander.

Q. Was the letter to Bo Gritz from General Aaron on DIA stationery?

A. Yes, as I recall -- one of them is in there. But yes. That's one of them.

Q. Go ahead.

A. It was not a copied letter. It was original stationery, with an original ink signature.

Q. Let me go back to your initial conversation with Bo Gritz over the telephone. Again, what's your best estimate as to the date?

A. We had lots of conversations from when the first calls came in, all the way through June when I left.

Q. But you first talked to him probably some time in April?

A. I want to say April.

Q. Did he say anything about a drug connection between CIA Agent Daniel Arnold and General Vang Pao during that first conversation?

A. Did he say anything?

Q. Right.

A. I don't recall if he said anything.

Q. Do you recall if you did?

A. There were some discussions.

Q. Can you tell us about that?

A. What does that have to do with it?

Q. It's related to this whole mission.

A. What was the question again?

A. Was there any discussion between you and Bo Gritz when you first spoke with him in April of 1981 regarding drug dealings, or any drug connection between CIA Agent Daniel Arnold and General Vang Pao?

A. I don't recall if they discussed it.

Q. If they discussed it -- I'm talking about your conversation with Bo Gritz.

A. There was some discussion. Bit I don't remember real heavily the time frame, or what it involved. But there was some discussion about things of that nature.

Q. What was the general nature of the discussion?

A. We're getting into in area here that I think doesn't really need to be gotten into. I mean I can't --

Q. Why don't you just tell us what the general drift of the conversation was regarding the drug connection?

A. I'd rather not.

Q. Well, I'm asking you the question.

A. Then I'm going to refuse to answer.

Q. On the basis of what?

A. Well, I Just don't want to discuss that. I don't really feel -- I mean I'll just take the Fifth Amendment against self-incrimination.

Q. Is that an honest answer?

A. That's a very honest answer, I mean there were some discussions. But somebody could twist it around, like obviously things I've seen here today, and make me look like a bad guy, and rather than dig into someone else's world, I'm going to leave it alone.

Q. Well, let me ask you just generally then, whether there was any discussion between you and Colonel Gritz regarding any gun-running connection between Daniel Arnold and General Vang Pao?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it your intention to take the Fifth as to any details?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you come in contact with a person named Robert Moberg?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is he?

A. Who is he in reality, or who was he as he introduced himself to me?

Q. Why don't you answer both?

A. He said he was a retired special forces individual that he was currently, quote, on paper working for the DEA in the Golden Triangle; that he was one of the recognizance helicopter pilots -- the main one, as a matter of fact.

Q. For Bo Gritz mission?

A. For the activity -- let me clarify something for the record. Whenever we spoke -- obviously not everything is in Bohica, or all these other books -- when we'd say the activity, we knew what we were talking about.

Q. Who is we, you and Bo?

A. Everybody involved. We always didn't say ISA, or the dark room, or slogan names. We always knew the activity to be exactly -- as I a little while ago -- explained it to be.

Q. So what did Moberg --

A. Moberg confirmed he was, in fact, the main helicopter pilot; that they had been having some problem with the guerrillas; that Khun Sa had been cooperating in one element; and there had been a problem for when Khun Sa's open field stopped and some other individuals started; and those were areas that apparently this intelligence operation was to take place, in a very hostile area between two drug war lords.

Q. When did you first meet Moberg?

A. Maybe the 16th of June, 1981.

Q. That was when you were in Thailand already?

A. What he could do -- I didn't mean to interrupt you. Every time went to the United States Embassy, I had to sign in in two places, one at the front gate, and one with the U.S. Marine Guards on the inside -- every time. And each time I was there, this passport was given them to hold until I left. So it was a constant -- so there's a record of every single time I went there, along with everybody else that goes through the gates -- unless they took the big white out.

Q. When we first asked you about Moberg, you said something like he had a -- he was someone in reality, and someone different.

A. Exactly, I knew he was a member of the activity, period. But he was, quote, there as a DEA Golden Triangle Eradication person, which was all bullshit.

Q. So in other words, that was his official --

A. That was his official pay chit. Because as he termed it, I guess it would be okay, he could get information from his employer of what was going on in that world, and give it to the activity so they know, certain things -- if you get what I'm saying. Do you know what I mean without saying it?

Q. Certain things about drugs?

A. Yes, okay, DEA is going to Monitor from this date to this date; okay this channel is wide open for the next 14 hours; we can do fly-overs. There will be no electronic set-up. So the inteliigence he would get from DEA, he could filter to the activity, and whatever they did with it, they did with it.

Q. When did you first go to Bangkok for Bo Gritz?

A. For Bo, June 1981.

Q. Was it June 15?

A. I believe so. Let me look. Arrived Bangkok, admitted 15 June, 1981. That is correct.

Q. How did you get there?

A. I believe it was Pan American Airways.

Q. From Hawaii?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go by yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you bring with you?

A. I brought the package, in its entirety, that Bo had sent over with Steve; my money; of course, passport; and one small satchel.

Q. Who had made the arrangements, travel arrangements?

A. I believe it was through Secret Service Travel Agency. That was the name of it -- no affiliation to the Secret Service that we know.

Q. Had you made your own arrangements, or had Bo?

A. I think he had made them. And I just went -- and I went just to go pick up the tickets, because I went on a one-way. I went in on a one-way.

Q. What was the reason for going in on a one-way?

A. Because I wasn't sure how long I was going to stay there. He wanted me to get a visa for 6 months. And I think I did get a 6-month visa. I got a visa -- 4-month visa - good for one journey.

Q. What was his explanation for why you might need a 6-month visa, if the only thing you were expected to do -- as you understood it - was to go talk to some people at the American Embassy?

A. That, you'd have to ask him. It might have been because they were only issuing either 1 or 2-day travel visas, or extended, non-immigrant visas. I don't know what the laws are.

Q. Do you remember questioning Gritz about that?

A. No.

Q. It sounds like based on What you understood you could have accomplished it in 1 or 2 days.

A. Well, who would know, though? I certainly wouldn't have. They might have wanted a lot of other things done.

Q. Did your visa allow more than one entry?

A. No, it did not. It's stamped here good for one journey only.

Q. And it's stamped on what date?

A. June 17, 1981 --- stamped there good for one journey. And I'm to leave September 5, 1981. So it was good for one journey.

Q. So this says the visa must be utilized before September 5, 1981?

A. That's what I did.

Q. I thought you said you went -- oh, I'm sorry. I got the months mixed up. What did you do when you got to Bangkok?

A. Proceeded, as instructed, to the NaNa Hotel; met the individuals I was instructed to meet -- Chanida and others.

Q. Who exactly did you meet there?

A. Chanida -- I couldn't even begin to pronounce the other names -- the one that called us Miss Sari; eventually Dominique Zaponne; what was that guy's name -- Alan Dawson; Paul Vogel; the soldier of fortune boys,

Q. Okay, why don't we go back and just go through these one by one, and you tell us who these people were and what their roles were.

A. Chanida was reported to me to be essentially a contracted individual for the activity. She -- I don't know if she was a manager, or an assistant manager of the NaNa, N-a-N-a. Sukim Vit, she had worked on previous assignments, and knew that I was coming. She had received some sort of telex, or something because she knew who I was right away. And she had the appropriate identification, as was instructed in the package.

Q. Who is next?

A. I think it was Ms. Sari. But I'm not sure. Because the meeting took place -- they wanted the meeting to take place in an extremely neutral, non-listening area. So we went to the middle, some little like a zoo, and got a little paddle boat and rode out in the middle of nowhere to talk -- a little extravagant, but I could see why. It was important. Then there was some problems with these soldier of fortune characters. So I had to re-contact Bo.

Q. Now what was that all about?

A. Jim Coyne and Frank Brown somehow knew that I was there. They sought me out. I let Bo know what was going on. He devised, you know, a-little ruse -- which worked -- obviously, they wrote about it. And ended up getting $750 on his American Express card. And then there was another character named Alan Dawson, who was really strange.

Q. You met him at the hotel?

A. I think it was in a bar that he eventually sought me out, or maybe I sought him out. I'm not sure. I mean there was a problem that Chanida had said with certain individuals that they had known in the confines, they had been coming in, checking, you know, what Americans had checked in and who was there. And then found Dominique Zaponne -- as a matter of fact, Alan Dawson -- no, Bobby Schwab was the other one, Robert Schwab.

Q. Okay, now who is Robert Schwab and Dominique Zaponne? Zaponne was a -- and I can only tell you what I was told -- a non-combatant, ex-Green Beret that Bo had recruited out of Van Nuys, California, to help do some cross-the-border intelligence gathering. Schwab, I'm sure you must know who he is, he was captured numerous times by the communist. And I think Richard Childers got him out 8, 9, years ago, 6 years ago. And Dawson was a freelance reporter for the Bangkok Post, if I'm not mistaken.

Q. Were you told that all these people were involved in this mission?

A. No. no, no -- they were problems. They were trying to snoop around and stir up stuff. And they -- you know, lack of killing them, they needed to be pushed out of the picture.

Q. Okay, and who told you that?

A. Bo --I mean he knew a list of -- you know, he said the only one I want you to deal with is Zaponne. All these others are thorns, you know? And we'll deal with them as they pop up.

Q. What was Zaponne's involvement supposed to be?

A. Cross-border with Bo.

Q. Okay.

A. Big guy.

Q. Were you told that Bobby Schwab was running bones across the southern border?

A. I, myself, personally talked to Schwab about that. He said yes, that Ann mills-Griffith, with the National League of Families had been paying him a couple-of-hundred bucks to get bones and return them -- irregardless of whether they were Americans, dogs, chickens, or cats. And that she needed, to maintain credibility with her people, to keep her in power. And at that time I didn't even know who the hell she was.

Q. So Schwab told you that he was involved in some major fraud with Griffith.

A. Exactly, with Griffith, Ann Mills-Griffith.

Q. Did he tell you the magnitude of --

A. As I recall -- and I'm only doing this by memory -- I think he was getting $200 per delivery of X amount of bones; not full-set skeletal remains, some stuff he had broughten back were dog tags, and airplane parts, serial numbers off some airplanes -- that were legitimate aircrafts shot down.

Q. Did you call a guy named George Brooks?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who is he?

A. George Brooks, from what Bo explained, was a man that had given Bo -- and I don't want to be held accountable to the amount, because I'm not sure -- it was either $20 or $40,000 -- I'm not sure which one. Bo wanted me to call him, in the United States. And I believe I made the call. And he was in New England somewhere, long-distance from Bangkok, on an open line, which kind of was a little bit strange. And I talked to Mr, Brooks. And you can ask him about the conversation.

Q. Well, what do you remember about the conversation?

A. Not much.

Q. I mean, what --

A. Just that he had given a substantial amount of money to Bo --

Q. For what?

A. To help recover Mr. Brooks' son --

Q. Who was a POW?

A. MIA/POW -- I don't recall right now which one -- and that Bo had been doing some things for the National League, with Ann Mills-Griffith, and that there was some sort of falling out. But Bo wanted to -- if something would happen, Bo wanted to be able to say publicly, well George Brooks helped finance it. Therefore, it's private.

Q. And you learned this information about the payment from --

A. From Mr. Brooks, himself. And Bo admitted that he did receive a substantial amount of money, whether it was $20 or $40, I'm not sure -- or $28.

Q. Okay, when did you first go to the U.S. Embassy in --

A. In Thailand?

Q. Right.

A. June, was my very first time.

Q. Was it June 15, the first day you arrived, or was it a couple of days later?

A. I think it was the following morning. But you'd have to check their records.

Q. I think your book indicates that it was the 17th.

A. It might have been.

Q. Does that sound right to you?

A. Somewhere in there.

Q. What was your express purpose in going to the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok?

A. It was specifically instructed to see Moberg, and from there it would go to wherever Moberg felt it needed to go.

Q. So Moberg was the person you were supposed to contact when you arrived?

A. Yes, and I did.

Q. Had you met him during the couple of days before you went to the Embassy, or was that the first time?

A. I'm thinking -- I don't think he came to the hotel that day, but he might have, I'm not sure.

Q. Okay, what happened when you met with Moberg at at the Embassy on the 17th of June?

A. Whenever that meeting was, he had come downstairs, real, nice, jovial guy, shook my hand, said let's walk down to the cafeteria and grab a quick cup first, before we go up. Walked down a long hallway; turned left; went in the cafeteria; sat down and started to have some coffee; and we're talking about the operation that was to come, you know.

Q. Did Moberg work at the United States Embassy?

A. Oh, yeah, he had an office on the third floor.

Q. Do you know what his official title was?

A. Drug Enforcement Eradication Pilot, or something like that.

Q. Okay.

A. DEA.

Q. So through his position --

A. He had DEA credentials.

Q. So through his position for the DEA, he had an office at the Embassy.

A. Yes.

Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.

A. So we started to have some coffee; discussing that there was a guy in there that he was concerned about. And he said something like bow your head, I don't want this guy to know that you're here. I don't even want to talk to this guy. So I kind of, you know, had my cup similar to this --

(indicating.)

THE WITNESS: -- and was sipping. And the guy had made eye contact. And he looked puzzled. And he came over. And he had asked Bob, and he goes, well aren't you going to introduce your friend? And it was like God, we know each other from somewhere. And he kept searching in his mind where we knew each other from, you know? And as I recall, I didn't even say my last name. I just said oh, I'm Scott, or something.

BY MR, KRAVITZ:

Q. Did you recognize this person?

A. Yeah, kind of. Then all of a sudden he goes now I know. June 1975, DEA school, El Turo, California -- something to that effect. I said no, it was Ervine. But yeah, you're right. Because we were in the same class together. Of course, I -- you know, 40, 50 agents from all over the world, and I don't know who everybody was.

Q. So who was this guy?

A. He was a real DEA guy apparently -- unbeknownst to me. There was some discussion about the DEA agent's wife up in Chaing Mai. And they talked a little bit about some stuff that had been going on. And, apparently, there was a -- I believe she was a Thai woman, also murdered up there, messing around in Khun Sa's territory. And Bob said, well, we've got to go. And we went upstairs.

Q. Do you know who this DEA agent was?

A. No.

Q. Okay, what happened when you went upstairs?

A. A Marine guard escorted us up. There was a part on the stair where he said this is as far as I can go. You have to go from here. I was searched. I take that back. They did do a physical search and electronic search. We went to a door. Bob pushed a bunch of buttons to get in the office and we went in a windowless, little, tiny office that he had and he started talking on the phone to somebody, not in English, bits and pieces in English. After a little while there he says I've got to take you down to Paul Mather, that's who you've got to see and I'll talk to you later. We went down to Colonel Mather's office.

Q. So you didn't have any further discussions with Moberg?

A. 20, 30 minutes, tops.

Q. Was the mission discussed?

A. Of course.

Q. What was discussed about it?

A. That he was going to be one of the helicopter pilots. There was some discussion about the members of the Blue Light, and the Delta team, that they were going to try to do a joint naval operation in the Gulf of Siam.

Q. Let me ask you this. At this point you still believed that your only involvement was delivering this stuff to the embassy?

A. Yes, and that's all at that time that it was,

Q. Why was he telling you all about the mission?

A. Bits and pieces of it were in the package and I had made some mention that I don't believe we left any Americans behind and if we did they want to be there anyway, leave them.

Q. So he was telling you about this secret mission?

A. I wouldn't say it was secret. It was something that was apparently in the planning, way in the future. It wasn't right now then, in June of '81, nothing was happening.

Q. So he was discussing this with you, and then you went down to see?

A. Well, we had discussed Vang Pao and some other things.

Q. And the issue of your involvement in the mission still had not come up?

A. Yeah, just to make sure that Vang Pao's people there, up along the border, were going to assist, that they were under the impression that it was, in fact, a private operation and that what Vang Pao's people had requested was going to be honored, medicine, more munitions, more radios, et cetera, et cetera.

Q. Based on what Moberg was telling you, what was your understanding of what the mission was?

A. There was a dual purpose. The POW part of it was to be an area, whether or not there was Americans in this region, and that's what his involvement was there.

Q. You mean reconnaissance to find out whether they were there?

A. Right. They needed some Americans when the monsoons were over to go in with Vang Pao's people to see and they had to make sure it was not, in any way, connected with the embassy, with the agency, with the activity -- anybody. They needed it cut and dried, everyone quote was a civilian. This was strictly on your own.

Q. And what was the other purpose?

A. It had nothing to do with POWs.

Q. Drugs? Why don't you just tell us if it had to do with drugs or not?

A. Yeah, it had to do with narcotics trafficking.

Q. When you were talking to Moberg that first time at the embassy, did he tell you which area the reconnaissance mission was going to go to?

A. If you have a map I can show you. Several areas were discussed.

Q. Were they all in Laos?

A. Yes.

Q. Why don't we get this marked.

(The document referred to was marked Barnes Exhibit No. 15 for identification.)

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. Just for the record, Exhibit 15 is a map of Laos with Vietnam and Thailand, or at least parts of it on there too.

A. Okay, the areas that were discussed, not all of them are printed on here, is, of course, Nape, this, here's Mu Gia Pass, Nhommarath, Mahaxay, and there was an area up in here that was discussed.

Q. Why don't you go through that one more time and state every place?

A. The map that he had was a thousand times more detailed, Nhommarath, N-h-o-m-m-a-r-a-t-h, Nape, N-a-p-e, Mahaxay, M-a-h-a-x-a-y, Mu Gia Pass, M-u G-i-a, but there are several others that aren't named here.

Q. Areas farther to the north and west?

A. More up in the area here.

Q. Were you shown any specific POW camps by Moberg?

A. They weren't called camps, reeducation centers that were pinpointed throughout this area right in here, and what was discussed is the Vietnamese, in all honesty, at certain times could say that no they are not holding any Americans against their will, in their country, but they would move them across the Mu Gia Pass, which would obviously put them in Laotian territory, and then he would say well, they're being honest; they don't hold any Americans. They are over here. So I understood and I said, well, I don't believe there's any Americans. If they're there they want to be there, leave them, and he kind of chuckled.

Q. What did you do when Moberg took you downstairs totalk to who?

A. Right down the hall.

Q. So he took you down the hall?

A. Paul Mather, Bill Wharton, Jim Tully, and I think there was one other gentleman, but I don't recall his name.

Q. Who were these guys?

A. Paul Mather, he introduced me as the Lieutenant Colonel, United States Air Force and the Joint Casualty Resolution Center boss. He was responsible for all intelligence coming out of the north on Americans and MIA'S, and Bill Wharton was supposedly a retired Marine Corps master sergeant, I think it was, who was a linguistic specialist. Jim Tully, as I recall, worked for defense intelligence and was an intelligence analyst on POW/MIA affairs out of IndoChina, and there was another guy, but I don't remember who he was. And there was another guy, but I don't remember who he was, he came and left, and then Moberg left.

Q. So were you speaking to these four other people all at the same time?

A. Let me think. They were sitting in front and there was Paul's desk, Bill was here, Jim was here, Moberg left -- I know three, we were like this, talking back and forth all the time.

Q. Were these guys supposedly part of the activity's mission?

A. That's what I'm not clear on.

Q. Was it explained to you why you were taken to see them?

A. Only that they were responsible for the primary job of confirming or denying Americans left behind, but more importantly they were in direct negotiations with Hanoi on remains, and it seemed like the importance was more on the remains -- something to the effect also, you are one of Bo's boys. They were cordial.

Q. So these people clearly knew about Bo Gritz's proposed mission?

A. Oh, absolutely. Matter of fact, Bill had mentioned there was a real -- I don't want to say this word, it's a nasty word, but anyway he said Florida was a real blah, blah, blah, so he knew Velvet Hammer was a screw-up and I knew nothing about Velvet Hammer.

Q. This was Bill who?

A. Wharton, W-h-a-r-t-o-n.

Q. What was discussed -- I mean how long a meeting did you have with these three people?

A. At that time? It was pretty long, I bet at least an hour or more, at least.

Q. What were you discussing for an hour?

A. We discussed four files of which I had never heard of any of them.

Q. Four POW files?

A. They didn't call them that, casualty files,

Q. Who were they?

A. At the time, Captain Charles, but he's promoted Colonel; Albert Lundy, Senior; Ron Dodge; and a guy named Bobby Garwood. So it was Shelton, Dodge, Garwood, and Lundy.

Q. What was the context in which those four people were discussed?

A. That Ron -- Commander Dodge's body would be coming back forthwith, that he was in fact captured alive, that he was killed, and that they were waiting for the deterioration of the remains before they returned them. Lundy they had reports on, they weren't sure if he was dead or alive. He was shot down, I think, up in the Plaine des Jarres; Bobby Garwood, like Bill was saying, you know, he opened his big mouth, he talked, he was a test case, you know, that he released to see what the reaction would be - is America ready to pay us some bucks or what happens, obviously they turned him in, I think they said, and he was being brought up on charges or something to that effect. And Shelton, was a living American prisoner of war the Pathet Lao had had, and that he was at one time rescued and then returned to his captors.

Q. Did you give Mather a letter from General Aaron at that time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was that the letter in the packet?

A. Yes, it was. One of several, several letters, the bio, there was something in there that could be construed as some sort of cryptic code -- I myself couldn't understand it.

Q. Did Mather say anything about the letter from General Aaron?

A. I don't recall. He opened a sealed envelope and whatever was in there I do not know, even to this very day, but it was something of very significance.

Q. Did you give him a map and code book?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. To Mather?

A. Yes.

Q. Those were from the packet of materials?

A. Yes.

Q. What was that all about?

A. The code book was just to deliver it in person.

Q. Had you read the code book?

A. I couldn't, I didn't even understand it. It was a code I'd never seen. The map was a topographical map that had certain squared areas with permanent markings on them, target sites is what they were called, such-and-such dates, SR-71 here, KH-13 or something here.

Q. Did those target sites correspond to the areas you were showing us on the map?

A. Exactly, and more.

Q. Can you describe what the code was like, was it a series of numbers and letters?

A. Yeah. It was on treated paper and it was both sides, I'm not sure which side was what you would call side 1 or side 2. There was a foreign writing in one corner, whether it was Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese, I have no idea. On the left- hand side, as you go down, there was lines, and then they had boxes, and each box would have something in this foreign language, then it would have an American letter, and then it would have a dash and a number, and it went through the whole thing, then when you turned it over on the opposite side there was no writing and it was all boxed.

And as you go down here, it's almost, as I would read, right to left, but the way they were looking at it, at least from what I saw on the other side of the desk, they were reading from one corner to corner to corner, something like that because he had written down some things about it which I have no idea -- I couldn't decipher it, if I wanted to.

(Recess,)

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. At some point during your meeting with Mather in the embassy that first time, did you agree to go to Cambodia for him?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How did that come about?

A. There was a discussion, how do I word this? United States State Department was making certain allegations against the Soviet Union in the use of chemical weapons, i.e. yellow rain in particular. He had asked if I would go deliver a shoe-box type size package to the Khmer Rouge, I made a comment, I thought the Khmer and Pol Pot were against them, and he kind of chuckled and he said you know, if you do this - and I said, okay. That's where it left.

Q. Did you know what was in the package?

A. No, I never opened the package, I never looked inside it. There was something in it, it weighed, I think, 2 or 3 pounds maybe, and I did deliver it. I am not going to deny it. Well --

Q. You've written about it in your book?

A. Well, yeah, I'm just thinking of the Neutrality Act. Is the Neutrality Act statute of limitations over?

Q. That I absolutely have no idea.

A. Yes, I went into Cambodia and delivered the package as requested to the Khmer Rouge, yes.

Q. When did you do that?

A. It was about the 18th, just before my birthday.

Q. Did you go by yourself?

A. No, I went with Prasit.

Q. How do you spell that?

A. P-r-a-s-i-t and Tek was the driver.

Q. When did you meet those guys?

A. Tek showed up the following morning to pick me up. The package was put in the trunk of his vehicle and for the next several hours we drove to Prasit's place over in Arana patat.

Q. Could you show us again on the map?

A. It doesn't go low enough. It would be down in here on the Cambodian/Thai border. If you leave Bangkok and come over here on the border, it's a town called Arana patat and there's a little place called Poiet, P-o-i-e-t, in the same area.

Q. Just so the record is clear you are pointing in the direction southeast of Bangkok?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember where it was that you crossed the border?

A. Mm, The Sunghoi River, and I know everybody in the world says there's no river there, but I beg to differ with you. If I can find the document, the grid coordinates. Steve, do you know what page it's on?

MR. GEKOSKI: We won't have the right map to match the grid coordinates anyway.

THE WITNESS: No, no, the grid coordinates are in here. The actual numerical. The picture of the little river I fell into is here too.

(Pause.)

THE WITNESS: Okay, it's Sunghoi-Si River, Thai/Cambodian border, Southeast Asia map series ND48-9 1/250,oooth,

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. So that is where you crossed the border?

A. That is the area that we crossed, yes.

Q. How long were you in Cambodia?

A. I think we stayed in the Khmer camp a few hours, max.

Q. What kind of arrangements had been made for you to go there?

A. That Prasit was an agent working on behalf of the United States Government to run people with other people, you know, into Cambodia via the JUSMAG and Task Force 80 people.

Q. How long were you there?

A. I got there early in the morning, so I think we came back probably mid afternoon, 4:00, maybe.

Q. Did you see anything of note when you were in Cambodia?

A. Well, what's of note?

Q. Did you just simply go there, drop off this box?

A. Dropped off, the interpreter talked for a while, saw a bunch of American weapons, that kind of surprised me. They were obviously in relatively new condition, weren't weather beaten, didn't look like they were traveled over jungles, rivers, and mountains. There was some discussion the United States had, in fact, been assisting the Khmer in fighting off the Vietnamese invasion, and I made a comment, isn't it true, since they didn't know English, I could say it, that these guys were the ones that were killing their own people, I mean they are involved in genocide. He says that point really doesn't matter. They are our only asset right now for a guerilla force, to keep the Vietnamese off key and so therefore a lot of the stuff removed from Bein Hoa and elsewhere we're just giving it to them.

Q. Did you learn what was in the package when you were in Cambodia?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever learned what was in that package?

A. Officially no. No, Later on, it did come about that it may have been samples of yellow rain that were to be put in strategic areas so when Al Haig made his visit, or whoever made their visit, they would find samples of yellow rain. They in turn, would make a firm accusation against the Soviets that they were, in fact, using yellow rain.

Q. Where did you hear that?

A. It had come up in some discussions with Prasit.

Q. As far as you could tell, did your trip to Cambodia have anything to do with the POW reconnaissance mission?

A. The later mission?

Q. Or any of it?

A. Yes, in one aspect. There was some discussions with the translator regarding certain areas in Cambodia where Cambodia and Laos meet, but I was not aware of -- but there was some discussion. There was some brief discussions with Prasit and the translator -- other than that.

Q. When did you get back? Where did you go after Cambodia?

A. As I recall, I went back to the ?Na ?Na, from there then I went back to the United States Embassy and reported back to Mather, Then he asked me to go down to the Vietnamese Embassy.

Q. I am sorry, then you went --

A. Then I went down to the Vietnamese Embassy.

Q. What was the purpose of going to the Vietnamese Embassy?

A. From what I understand it was that they needed someone to go down that was a civilian and that it was all prearranged, and that we were going to discuss, there was a certain individual that was at that time from Hanoi, supposedly a very powerful ministerial-type figure that wanted to discuss the prisoner of war issue, but Mather and his people were obviously well known to V.C. intelligence, that they couldn't go down, Moberg couldn't go down, so I went down.

Q. Who did you meet with at the Vietnamese Embassy?

A. I couldn't even begin to pronounce their names, I mean seriously. I'm not trying to be coy, I couldn't. After they opened the gate, there was two fully dressed in their uniforms with some dogs. We went through a metal gate, went through another gate, went down a long corridor. Then some Vietnamese in business suits came in, we went into this room right on the right. A nice gorgeous room. The guards stayed on the doors.

There was one uniformed guy on the inside. Then there was a door right here, and two people obviously of some importance came in because everybody except me stood up, and they started talking. And then the one guy was fairly good English, then two of them started talking in French. I don't know French, but I know bits and pieces, and I said, well, that's not Vietnamese, and they had some discussions and they said well, you'll understand in a minute, and we stayed there -- they had some tea. I wouldn't drink it -- less than 2 hours.

Q. Could you understand any of the conversation that was going on?

A. When we spoke in English, oh sure.

Q. What was being discussed?

A. They knew that I was sent there. They wanted to discuss war crimes and it's just like, who do you think I am? They pulled out some pictures that were very interesting and sad. We did discuss our country's belief that they believed that there was Americans still living, but they were more inclined to have an admission of some sort of war crimes stuff and he showed pictures.

Q. What were the pictures of?

A. They were pictures of Americans holding up decapitated heads of obviously Vietnamese people. There was pictures that were somewhat similar to the My Lai incident. A lot of young, naked individuals that were obviously deceased and deteriorating, decomposing -- some argument, for lack of a better word, over that. Then you go back and you report to your people that there will be some sort of discussion on this issue. I left, went back, reported to Mather.

Q. Were you shown any maps at the Vietnamese Embassy?

A. Well, there was maps that were there, not in English, but there were some maps, yes.

Q. Were they the subject of any discussion?

A. Ironically we discussed, briefly Khun Sa. There was a controlling factor, but other than that there was nothing in any great detail.

Q. What was ultimately your understanding as to the purpose of your trip to the embassy, the Vietnamese Embassy?

A. I think they wanted to see what they would say, and how they would treat me.

Q. Who wanted to see?

A. Mather's people. His little group, knowing that apparently, and I don't know if you might know what the political situation back in June '81 between our country and their countries were, I don't recall. But I think they wanted to see -- are they softening up, are they willing to talk, can we approach them from a non-governmental -- I said, I don't work for the government, I have no government credentials at all.

Q. You mean are they willing to talk about prisoners?

A. That was one of the highlight of discussions. I think they were -- maybe I shouldn't say more interested, they wanted to see if I would say yes, U.S. soldiers committed war crimes. How am I supposed to know, you know? I think they wanted to see my reaction and some names were brought up. But they were not American names and I have no idea who they are.

Q. Were prisoner of war issues discussed at all?

A. Not in any great detail. There was one photo in particular with an American with a bandage across his face and it was brought up that they were going to release him, deceased, and I had said well that's the one Mather had previously had discussed, Commander Dodge, and apparently later on he did come back, full skeletal remains.

Q. What happened when you went back to the American Embassy?

A. I told Mather what had transpired and I went back to my place and went to Burma.

Q. So you left Thailand at that point?

A. Just for the day, I went to Burma and came back.

Q. We are still a little bit unclear as to why you were sent to the Vietnamese Embassy?

A. That you would have to ask them. It could have been a set-up too, because like I think I told you the FBI now has all these pictures of me entering the embassy with something in my hand and then exiting supposedly with nothing in my hand.

Q. Did you bring anything there?.

A. I think I had a little satchel of stuff, but other than that I don't recall.

Q. So just correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to paraphrase, but just tell me if I'm wrong. Is it your understanding then that the reason you were sent by Mather to the Vietnamese Embassy in Bangkok was simply to see how the Vietnamese were going to react to an American?

A. To somebody that quote wasn't affiliated with the government and wanting to discuss the prisoner of war issue. I want to say -- I'm trying to figure out a name, Duk So, was a name that was mentioned quite a bit, a Vietnamese individual. There was one who spoke excellent English. He said he was even educated in the United States. But I think more their focus was on, am I going to say there was war crimes. It's like, how am I supposed to know if there was or not? I have no idea. I think, it was like a game and, of course, the whole thing could have been set up by Mather so the FBI has these pictures, I don't know.

Q. Did anyone at the meeting in the Vietnamese Embassy, any Vietnamese say anything about having live American POW'S?

A. There may have been some discussion that they are not in their country, but there may be some in a neighboring country. You have got to remember I wasn't too interestedthen because I didn't believe there was any, so to me it was irrelevant. It just wasn't that big a deal to me -- sorry to say, knowing what I know now.

Q. How much longer did you stay in Thailand at that time?

A. I think I stayed about 9 or 10 days, I think I left the 24th or 25th of June.

Q. Did you do anything else?

A. Went to Burma.

Q. Did you do anything else related to Bo Gritz or Mather or any of those people?

A. Got rid of the soldier of fortune and Dawson character. Schwab went back to Southern Laos to get bones, Zapone went north. Oh, no I take that back. Yeah, I did. I went to the Bank of America to set up the money wire transfer and we did a test on it, that's correct. There was an American, either he was the president, or vice president of the main B of A branch in Bangkok and I was supposed to set up an account to have money wired to a company.

Q. This was your payment from Bo Gritz?

A. No, no, this was for them for the future, and I did go to B of A and I did receive a wire so it was active and working.

Q. How did you get involved in that?

A. That was part of the package discussions, that I wasto go, you know -- Chanida had a whole list of orders, too, that needed to be set up, that she knew from Bo, that she had already had, and I did go to B of A and I did set that up and I did receive a wire, just to make sure it was working.

Q. Money came through?

A. Yes. It was $500 I remember that, Because it had to be handled by one individual guy in the bank, a white guy, so if you could find whoever he was then, and get the information.

Q. So that happened between say the 19th of June and the 25th of June?

A. Yeah, it was more towards the latter part.

Q. At this time, was it still your understanding that your involvement was going to end with this trip to Thailand?

A. Well, yes and no. I was supposed to go back, I'd never met Bo, I was supposed to go back, tell him what had transpired, everything was go, and that would be shake hands, get another wad of cash, and that would be the extent of my involvement, yes.

Q. Before we talk about your trip back to the United States, you mentioned a joint Delta-Blue Light exercise in the Gulf of Siam?

A. Right. It was discussed that there was going to be, our government was going to have a naval operation going on down there which -- how do I word this, I wasn't Navy so I don't know what they call them -- a training exercise, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary that all these ships are there. And that there was going to be members of Blue Light and Delta. It was a two-fold operational plan in that one was going to be a hit and the other was going to provide the exit. Other than that I never knew if there was a big military operation in the Gulf.

Q. This was something you discussed in your meeting at the U.S. Embassy?

A. That is correct.

Q. With Mather?

A. With Moberg.

Q. Did you go back to the U.S. to meet with Gritz?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Where did you meet with him?

A. I met with him in Hermosa Beach, California, for the first time in person.

Q. What was the purpose of that meeting?

A. He wanted to know what happened. I did turn over some pictures to him of the Khmer, and he briefly discussed, it was an ongoing situation. He wanted to know if I could introduce him personally to General Vang Pao. I hemmed and I hawed and I arranged that and I did bring them together. Then we got, unfortunately, a little bit deeper into the situation. He said, I saw you on ABC's television show. He says it was good you were out of the country when that aired.

Q. Where did your meeting with Gritz take place?

A. It's a little like a taco place near the Hermosa Beach pier in California.

Q. Did you go to his house?

A. Later on, yes,

Q. When later on?

A. I don't know if it was that day or maybe a day or two later.

Q. Did you see any equipment at his house when you went there?

A. At the house on Holy Cross, here is the home and you go down the driveway and back here was an office. In here there was some. But there was blue house next door that he was using to store stuff. Later on, yes, a tremendous amount there.